hell for a booboo?

very long post...you might get something from here :) this is found in the forum section of A Christian and an Atheist. Enjoy! :)


Hi Poemind, Spongebob and everybody :) Thanks for the welcome :)

First off, i think i have to introduce myself: i'm a student getting my doctorate in physics and i'm also an aspiring writer (as you might have noticed!). i was literally born into a Catholic culture but unfortunately i have encountered more of the traditions and activities that i can do to be saved, instead of hearing those parts in the Bible that say only Jesus (the Jesus already ingrained in our consciousness!) can save me. Hence i began to have doubts about God at the same time that i started looking into the sciences in high school. i embraced the term "agnostic" which seemed so appropriate; even now, because i believe now that i have "seen".

To Poemind, i'm sincerely sorry for any feeling of outrage, offense or anything that i might have caused :( i truly did not mean to.

i'm not claiming i know my future, much less anyone else's. Especially since i *do* know how you feel; i HATE the whole "well *i'm* going to heaven and you're not" air too. (It's bad enough in kindergarten when some kids didn't want to play with me, what more when applied to discussions of the eternal soul? That's always awful.)

Although even my parents sometimes feel that way, please believe that i don't do the holier-than-thou route: i've always lived my life going my own way and i only turned to God when i had no other choice. (How's that for virtuous? :) ) But here's the thing: the Bible, and what He tells me personally (which for the sake of argument, can also just be delusions on my part) *always* turn out to be right. That's why i mentioned the Emerson quote: i learned the hard way that i don't know everything, and there's Someone who until now turns out to have the answers...answers that are not only "right" but "good" too.

Maybe some of you reading this might know of when many of Jesus' disciples left because they can't take his hard teachings (yup, "right" and "good" but really hard to follow! i think the atheists and Christians would agree at least on that! :) ). Jesus asked the twelve if they wanted to leave too; Peter replied, "Lord, where else can we go? You have the words of eternal life." One of my favorite psalms also say: "Taste and see that the Lord is good." Embarrassing as it might be to admit to turning to God only when i really had to, since then i've tasted and i've seen for myself. Now i can say that there is nowhere else i can go. (And as a former agnostic, i've believed because i *have* seen. :) )

Your father's statement and/or implications *do* seem unfair though; that each man will be judged by the light they have received if they had no say in how much light they received in the first place...i can't easily ask your father to clarify on that but...

Right now all i can think of is Jesus' parable about the talents (the Matthew effect in economics): "For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him." But note that even if the servants were given unequal amounts, they had complete freedom in how to use them, and in the end they were judged according to how the talents entrusted to them grew. To balance this out, the Bible constantly warns too that "to the one whom much is given, much is expected." Surely, whether we say we believe in creation or evolution, we cannot choose "what we have been given in life" (our body, talents, financial status, relatives...) but we do have the power/choice/freedom in the decisions we make, which are usually based on these "initial conditions".

Gandhi and Buddha are often used as examples in this kind of discussion aren't they? :) And i always cringe...and take the seemingly cowardly act of talking about my own life instead. :) Well, the Bible does say that it is never our (humans') place to judge. :) But i also just point to myself to show how *hard* it is to rely on my self instead of on the Biblical God; i personally don't know if Gandhi had it easy. (i have heard though, that Gandhi said that he had no problems with Christ, only with Christians; and like many of us he questioned the "hypocrisy, malpractices and dogma in all religions [Wikipedia]".)

But speaking of whether Gandhi is in hell or not, i have heard some scholars say that the biblical fire and brimstone is just a metaphor for *any place* where God is not present. i'm not too sure about drawing the line between metaphor and reality (because in the same vein others say that Jesus is not God, or not resurrected and so on), but i can definitely relate with the absence of God even before any physical death. Like i said before, there was a time when i stuck by a particular decision against all urgings of conscience until my conscience did not bother me anymore. i did not listen to God so He did not speak anymore (as the secular 'conscience')...But i'm a weird person; i only realize the absence of something when it finally returns :) such that it was only later on, when i became a full-fledged Christian learning how to communicate with God, did it sink in: i was previously spiritually very dead and i did not know it. i was already in hell, even without fire and brimstone.

(Elaboration 1) When i turned away from God, it started as just really wanting to do something that i knew was wrong, which led me to question the authority of God, and eventually His existence. But God didn't really leave, He just did not make His presence felt. That's because there were rare times when i suddenly get to think, "This is all i ever wanted, how come i've never felt so miserable?". And during my lowest point when i felt my world crumbling, i had a deep sense that "everything is going to be ok". i can confidently say that it was God who gave me flashes of insight and comfort even when i turned away from Him; even though the ideas were in my head, i definitely could not have thought them because (a) otherwise i wouldn't have gotten to the point where i was so depressed, and (b) i certainly did not have any answer to the question i heard, nor did i have an explanation to the statement i heard.

(Elaboration 2) A warning to all of us: i turned away from God a few years after i first prayed the "salvation prayer" to accept Jesus as Savior and Lord, and a few months after i prayed that i would get to know and love God before meeting my husband. (You could guess my age right now, huh!) At that time one decision logically made sense and flowed into another; but now i look back and say "What was i thinking?" (i hope nobody takes offense here, i think we could all relate in some other context outside faith...) Anyway i'd like to mention this: "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

To sum up, i don't know the future, but i trust God who revealed Himself through the Bible and that still small voice. i *am* an agnostic who encountered evidence for belief in my own life, in the short time that i have been a Christian (dear skeptics, you might be glad to know that when i started attending services i mentally had one foot still on "dry land", or one eye still opened, or some such thing). Hence, when the Bible makes statements about the afterlife and eternal destiny, i choose to believe because (i) i myself have no idea, and (ii) no other person/philosophy has proven itself credible. i am concerned for everyone else who has not accepted Christ, not because i'm-right-and-you're-wrong, but because i have already experienced the absence of God for a short period of time and i now realize it to be hell, a fate i do not wish upon anyone. But since i myself realized the depth of "hell" only when i encountered "heaven" wherever God is present...it's like asking people to eat this brand of ice cream instead, and they'll know why after they try it for themselves.

Taste and see that the LORD is good...just...great...true. For those here who have never been Christians, why not try reading or asking around, just on the off chance that you might learn something :) For those who are formerly Christian, i was once like you :) i hope the non-Christians here would keep an open mind, that --- like Poemind said --- you be agnostic of being agnostic :), and if you're atheist, that there is even a small possibility that there is a God (perhaps not the God of organized religion? Or maybe there's a little truth to what they're saying?). In any case, i cannot make the decision for you; i just really really hope that you "taste" for yourself because it's really for your own benefit anyway. :)

Great day and God bless! :)