"The seismic shock of out-and-out atheism sent tidal waves across Europe and beyond, directly accounting for the annihilation and butchering of more than a hundred million people this past century alone. Humanity has paid a steep, gruesome price for the awful experiments in deliberate antitheism carried out by Lenin, Hitler, Stalin, Mao Tse-tung and others (teci: like Pol-pot) --- each of whom was profoundly influenced by the writings of the apostles of atheism...After watching atheism proliferate...it's clearer than ever that...without God, we're lost."
--- Luis Palau, God is Relevant
(as quoted in Lee Strobel, The Case for Faith)
Right- it had NOTHING to do with communism. Because it isn't like political ideologies influence people's actions. No, people are entirely controlled by their belief about God and atheists, unlike believers have a single spectrum of beliefs.
ReplyDeleteDang- the sarcasm filters burned out.
Anyway, Hitler wasn't an antitheism. He was a Christian and he valued faith. No dice.
The rest were atheists, but their motivations... well, Pol Pot wanted to get everyone back to an agricultural cmmunal lifestyle... by killing all the intellectuals. Where have I heard such praises of the small town life style before?
Mao killed most of his victims by REALLY screwing up the economy. And the cultural revolution. And the revolution. I don't think he spent any time attacking religion.
Lenin was a big anti-theist (Stalin, not as much) and he didn't kill so many people... mostly because he suffered a stroke in 22. The country had just emerged from a civil war. So he may have been brutal... but it didn't stand out.
Stalin killed between 1.5 to 60 million.
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm
Most of it was due to agricultural problems- those factories didn't build themselves!
Hello Samuel. Thanks for the immediate reply there.
ReplyDeleteWhat is communism? From Wikipedia: "A socioeconomic structure that promotes the establishment of an egalitarian, classless, stateless society..." No government, of humans, much less of any super-human being.
You concede that those mentioned, except for Hitler, were atheists, but their motivations [were focused elsewhere]. But you can determine for yourself whether someone is "really" atheist by looking at the principles behind their actions, even if on the surface they did not spend "any time attacking religion".
The same reasoning goes for Hitler. His actions completely contradict his claims of being Christian. Jesus Himself said that not all people who call Him "Lord" will be accepted by Him. Jesus died for the Jews (and the rest of the world), while Hitler brought on the Holocaust.
There's no need to get sarcastic when the facts speak for themselves.
As a side note, it's interesting that you are so quick to point out that Hitler was Christian, period. In contrast, "The rest were atheists, but...". We need to be more consistent than that.
Grace and peace to you Samuel. :)
"What is communism? From Wikipedia: "A socioeconomic structure that promotes the establishment of an egalitarian, classless, stateless society..." No government, of humans, much less of any super-human being."
ReplyDeleteWhich is why I don't use wiki for debates. The USSR considered themselves communist... but still had a state. In fact all communist states have been... states.
I use the definition that defines communism as an economic system where the government owns all the property. The definition you gave sounds alot more like Marxism.
"You concede that those mentioned, except for Hitler, were atheists, but their motivations [were focused elsewhere]. But you can determine for yourself whether someone is "really" atheist by looking at the principles behind their actions, even if on the surface they did not spend "any time attacking religion"."
Actually, I generally determine it by how they respond to "what is your religion". People often lie about their belifs for political reasons, BUT it does tell you what their religion is.
"The same reasoning goes for Hitler. His actions completely contradict his claims of being Christian. Jesus Himself said that not all people who call Him "Lord" will be accepted by Him. Jesus died for the Jews (and the rest of the world), while Hitler brought on the Holocaust. "
No true Scotsman. Are you claiming the Crusaders aren't Christian? They butchered their way through Jeursalem, waist high in guts and gore... but they still count as Christian!
Christianity is a belief system. It simply requires that you recognize Jesus Christ as your lord and savior. Nothing else.
"As a side note, it's interesting that you are so quick to point out that Hitler was Christian, period. In contrast, "The rest were atheists, but...". We need to be more consistent than that."
Because I like the truth. As for "atheists but"... it is the same way I say, "sure the murderer is black, but"- it is the way I dismiss irrelevant details. After all, a LACK of beliefs can't cause people to do anything!
Hello again Samuel :) Good to hear from you again. Sorry for the late reply, it was a busy weekend :)
ReplyDeleteSamuel: "Which is why I don't use wiki for debates. The USSR considered themselves communist... but still had a state. In fact all communist states have been... states.
I use the definition that defines communism as an economic system where the government owns all the property. The definition you gave sounds alot more like Marxism."
I agree that Wikipedia is still prone to misinformation. i do use it for discussions to find a common ground, especially for definitions. Let's try again.
Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary:
"Com"mu*nism\, n. [F. communisme, fr. commun common.] A scheme of equalizing the social conditions of life; specifically, a scheme which contemplates the abolition of inequalities in the possession of property, as by distributing all wealth equally to all, or by holding all wealth in common for the equal use and advantage of all.
Note: At different times, and in different countries, various schemes pertaining to socialism in government and the conditions of domestic life, as well as in the distribution of wealth, have been called communism."
Communist states are states, but they are based on the ideology of *equality for all*. When a communist government "owns" all the property, it supposedly just acts as a regulating body for allocating the resources properly. Your definition of communism is limited in that you may just be talking about the means, not the end goal. If the end goal is a government taking all the property, that would be tyranny, which ironically is the complete opposite of the communist ideals.
However, i do understand that your definition reflects reality --- communist nations do end up as tyrannies where "government owns all the property", period. But that's exactly the point of the blog entry --- atheism ("no God") leading to human-centered ideals that sounded good ("equality for all") leading to awful reality (tyranny of man over fellowmen). Human-centered ideologies have been shown to fail again and again, because man is not able to save himself. To repeat, "Man without God is lost."
====================
Samuel: "Actually, I generally determine it by how they respond to "what is your religion". People often lie about their belifs for political reasons, BUT it does tell you what their religion is."
I don't see your point. You say you determine their religion based on their answer, yet they often lie. So how can you "tell what their religion is"?
Since we agree that people --- especially public figures --- lie about their beliefs, we can look at their actions. Cases in point: Hitler, the Crusaders.
Disclaimers: (1) No perfect (sinless) follower of Christ exists; but where does "sinful Christian" end and "completely un-Christian" begin? (See Disclaimer #2.)
(2) Christians believe that only God is the perfect Judge because He knows everything and only He has the authority to do so. Still, we can learn from others' lives and make important judgment calls.
====================
Samuel: Christianity is a belief system. It simply requires that you recognize Jesus Christ as your lord and savior. Nothing else.
Yes, Samuel, i agree. Recognizing someone as "lord", though, entails following that Person completely for one's entire life. (See Disclaimer #1.)
It's possible that Hitler did recognize Christ, it's also possible (as you said) that he lied. It is possible that one's religion is merely official and quite contradictory to one's actual personal beliefs. Again, what belief system was Hitler really under when he sent millions of Jesus' countrymen to their graves? Was he really a Christian, following the one who said turn the other cheek?
Anyways, the blog entry only says this: "each of whom was profoundly influenced by the writings of the apostles of atheism". Again, whether someone is "officially" atheist or Christian or something else, what are the foundations of his/her beliefs?
====================
Teci: "As a side note, it's interesting that you are so quick to point out that Hitler was Christian, period. In contrast, "The rest were atheists, but...". We need to be more consistent than that."
Samuel: Because I like the truth. As for "atheists but"... it is the same way I say, "sure the murderer is black, but"- it is the way I dismiss irrelevant details. After all, a LACK of beliefs can't cause people to do anything!
You like the truth, so do I. You pointed out the possibility of people lying, which is why I pointed out the possibility of Hitler lying about his Christianity. You conceded that the rest were atheists but dismissed the fact as irrelevant. Is it really?
Your last statement is mistaken. Why?
(1) Perhaps you are thinking positive belief leads to positive action, while "lack of" belief leads to lack of action. But that is not always the case. A child who believes that his parent or teacher will punish wrong behavior will be hindered from doing wrong. A child who does not know/recognize the rules, or does not know/recognize the enforcer of the rules, will naturally do anything he wants.
To use a more simplistic illustration: atheists don't just sit and stare blankly for the rest of their lives! Atheists go about their lives just like believers do; only they are motivated by different belief systems.
(2) Atheism is the firm belief that there is no supreme being, divinity, or god. It is a sure denial of existing religious beliefs. It is not a mere "lack of beliefs"!
Again, atheists think, speak, and act according to their belief that there is no god, including the all-knowing, all-powerful, all-good God of the Christians. From this belief sprung up communism and other humanistic (human-centered) ideologies. Some of these, like communism, are quite well-intentioned, but humanity itself is incapable of achieving those intentions, even resulting in the opposite dystopia. To make things worse, what is to stop tyrants-in-the-making when they "learn" from atheist-initiated worldviews that morality is only a cultural fabrication and that there really is no one "higher" than them that could hold them accountable for their actions?
To conclude: One's belief system is far from irrelevant; it is the motivating force for all one does, and does not do. Where the blood shed in the Christian-led Crusades, Inquisition, and wars are truly tragic, these are opposed to Christ's teachings and those responsible will be held responsible on the day of judgment. But the world leaders "profoundly influenced by...atheism" were acting in complete accordance with atheistic beliefs.
Again, "without God, we're lost."