Heaven, Hell and In-Between? (On purgatory)

Yesterday, I was talking to two colleagues about sin and faith. We're all scientists and teachers (!) so we just delve right into theology, history, and philosophy with mouths that move almost as fast as our brains. (Wow I'm so humble. :p )

What we're learning from each other is great enough. But even better is that there's an atmosphere of mutual respect and just an eagerness to understand God better to live more fully for Him. :)  Awesome. And there is an appreciation for how this same God moves in different groups and cultures to draw all people to Himself. Indeed He is real and He is simply the Greatest. ♥

So this morning the discussion continued via email, focusing on purgatory. I'm reposting my reply below because I hope it will help shed some light on what Jesus' life, death and resurrection means for us today, especially in our (Philippine) culture. 

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Hi bros!

Yes ---, it's refreshing to talk to you and --- yesterday. One God and One Spirit indeed. After our talk I was inspired to tweet and post this :)

All human institutions are prone to error. But nothing is beyond God's saving, redeeming Power, Truth and Love. #OneGod

Before anything else, I'll just take back what I said yesterday, careless words ---  about venial vs. mortal sins as determination whether one lands in purgatory or hell. I don't believe in purgatory so I just carelessly said that. Sorry, my mistake.

Starting question / Food for thought: The concept of purgatory --- when did it start being taught?


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I'll comment on this point:  

"Some Fundamentalists also charge, as though it actually proved something, "The word purgatory is nowhere found in Scripture." This is true, and yet it does not disprove the existence of purgatory or the fact that belief in it has always been part of Church teaching. The words Trinity and Incarnation aren’t in Scripture either, yet those doctrines are clearly taught in it."

The concept of purgatory is not only unmentioned in the Bible, it is in conflict with what the Bible explicitly teaches. Christ says that on Judgment Day, he will separate the sheep and the goats (either you're in or you're out) (Matthew 25:31-46). He also gave the parable of a poor man named Lazarus who died and went to heaven, while a rich man died and was sent to hell. The rich man requested Abraham for some water, and Abraham said "...between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us." (Luke 16:26).

Jesus is the only one who can and already saved us from hell. Upon being saved, indeed we are now being sanctified and are growing in Christlikeness. Indeed, no follower of Christ suddenly becomes perfect like God, but isn't it great that we are improving, becoming more like Him, even in this life, before we die?

Questions: Is perfection a requirement to eternal life? How do we attain this perfection? Wouldn't this just point us back to Christ and the cross? Nobody is perfect, everybody is sinful, we all need a Savior. Even when we follow Christ we are still imperfect sinners, but what can purgatory do that Jesus has not already done? (Why not just go back and claim Jesus' forgiveness for all the sins I have done today?)


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I'll also comment on this point:

"After all, if a guilty soul is merely "covered," if its sinful state still exists but is officially ignored, then it is still a guilty soul. It is still unclean."

Is this implying that Jesus' death and resurrection are not enough? Let's be careful now! 

"Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!" --- John the Baptist (John 1:29,36), also according to Old Testament prophecies

Yesterday we were talking about consistency which points to authenticity. I respect the authority of the Catholic Church (!) but again, let us look into the consistency of this teaching. When I trusted Jesus as my Savior, I let Him save me by His taking the punishment for my sins. That means I am saved, covered, and yes, clean. That's my belief, based on my understanding of the Bible. I'll explain below. If there is disagreement, let's talk about it (find time! :) ).

Many times Jesus told people, "Your sins are forgiven... You are healed... Today you will be with me in paradise." Period. Jesus never said, "You need a period of purging first." It's just yes or no. Even when He charged Peter and the apostles (which I know Catholics love to quote!) --> "Everything you bind on earth will be bound in heaven... Everything you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." (Matthew 16:19, Matthew 18:18) It's yes or no. In or out. He never said maybe, and He never taught it.

It's true that Jesus sometimes told people to do something (ex: go wash in the pool, or show themselves to the priests), and we can argue that their healing and/or salvation is conditional. (That might be a longer discussion for another time.) But my point here is, there's no maybe. Either they were healed or not. Either Jesus assured them of heaven (like the thief beside Him on the cross), or not. Yes or no.


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So, can we just view this present life as purgatory?

Indeed, nobody attains perfection when they get baptized, pray a particular prayer, do this or that. Nobody becomes a Christian and suddenly achieves perfection. Essentially, every moment we are being called to be more Christlike --- so I think non-Catholic Christians just (implicitly) see this present life as purgatory... only in the sense that one is walking with Christ and becoming "more" like Christ (thereby being "better and implicitly "more" perfect...?)

But non-Catholic Christians (I'll call NCC?) don't really perceive perfection as a goal, because it implies "I want to be like God" which is both impossible and dangerously idolatrous (like Satan tempting Eve). And NCC don't view death as the moment when you achieved perfection such that you may already "graduate". So that's where the analogy of this life and purgatory ends. (Well, it's not really an issue for NCC, but I'm just trying to apply the concept of sanctification here...)


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To summarize: Humans are imperfect and sinful and all deserve eternal punishment for our sins, which means hell. We cannot save ourselves because no one (human) is good enough. Only Jesus, fully God and fully man, can take our place and receive our punishment such that we can also receive His righteousness. For all my sins (past present and future), I can receive my just punishment (hell or eternal existence away from God), or I can let God save me (receive Jesus as my Savior, that He died in my place so I can receive His righteousness). 

"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished — he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus." (Romans 3:23-26)

As you quoted "nothing unclean shall enter heaven", in the same way that "no one can see God's face and live " (Exodus 33:20). And people who become Christian are still imperfect and prone to sin. But these all just point back to Christ as the solution: not just for our salvation but also for our redemption and sanctification: 

In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, he'd made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment — to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ. (Ephesians 1:7-10)

So Christians are not perfect, only cleansed, forgiven, and *continuously* being sanctified to be more like Christ. We can call this sanctification a "purging", but the formal Catholic definition of purgatory (a state of purification before entering Heaven) is not what the Bible teaches (each person has an eternal destiny, either with God in Heaven or away from God in Hell; with no middle way or in-between state).


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Thank you guys for hearing me out! :) Thank God I was able to read this message (--- sends a lot, I just couldn't get to read them!). And thank you for listening.

God bless, and see you next week ^_^

Your sis in Christ,

Teci :)

The Fundies of Love

Yes, this is funny :)

http://themetapicture.com/heres-an-idea-2/

Christians (currently aka Fundies or Fundamentals) have been known to hate, hurt and even kill in the name of God. If we are strict about God's commands (including those on idolatry and homosexuality) --- we should remember that these boil down to (1) loving God and (2) loving your neighbor.
 
If we speak the truth about what pleases God and what disgusts Him... do we speak it in love for the hearers' sake? Or do we speak it in love for ourselves, in disgust of "others", and overall self-righteousness?

If we talk about God's judgment at the end of days, do we also talk about the Son that sets us free?

If we bombard people with accounts of hell, do we also give them glimpses of heaven?


There is no more condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. (Romans 8:1) Sometimes, we share the "Good News" by focusing on the "Bad News" --- that one is a wretched sinner. Guess what: the sinner probably already knows the problem. Why not focus on the solution: talk more about God Himself?


Love does not mean tolerating or condoning the evil actions of the beloved. But true love goes the extra mile to help the loved one. Jesus left heaven to restore us. If we are already saved, what have we been doing?

A student's sure answer

A physics major talks about being uncertain (no more) in Christ. (We belong to the same research laboratory and the same local church.)

We finally have a way and right to be certain - no more estimation. We don’t have to estimate whether we have done enough good works to earn ourselves a spot in heaven. We don’t have to worry ourselves to death on whether we’ve believed in Him enough for Him to spare us the pain of hell. Why, because the job is already done. Our sins have been paid at a price (Yes, you’re a sinner and so am I.) Don't get me wrong, there are things that we do have to trust Him for - things in our life that we still do not see. But God will never forsake us. And the one thing that we cannot be uncertain of, he made certain for us already.

Keep on discovering and sharing the truth, Haneka :)

God's love is patient

How long, O God, is the foe to scoff?

     Is the enemy to revile your name forever?

Why do you hold back your hand, your right hand?

     Take it from the fold of your garment and destroy them!

Yet God my King is from of old,

     working salvation in the midst of the earth.

- Psalm 74:10-12

The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness,
but is patient toward you,
not wishing that any should perish,
but that all should reach repentance.
- 2 Peter 3:9

The Reward is in the Choice

God is perfectly able to do anything and everything.

It's up to us if we want to join
     and how much of Him we want
     and how much of ourselves we give

Indeed, we can choose
     how much of the rewards (or punishment) we like
     although life without Him is punishment in itself
     and life with Him is its own reward

The Choice for June 17, 2011

Choose for yourselves this day, He says,
        life or death?
        cursing or blessing?

As for me, right now,
I have finally resolved
to stop listening to the demons
and listen once again to the angels.

give the bad news then the good

I, the LORD God, say those lying prophets are doomed! They don't see visions--they make up their own messages! Israel's prophets are no better than jackals that hunt for food among the ruins of a city. They don't warn the people about coming trouble or tell them how dangerous it is to sin against me. (Ezekiel 13:3-5)


From "Hell's Best Kept Secret" by Ray Comfort (details at the bottom):


Now, if you look around you, you’ll find there are plenty of passengers enjoying the flight. They’re enjoying the pleasures of sin for a season. Go up and say, “Excuse me. Did you hear the command from our Captain about salvation, ‘Put on the Lord Jesus Christ.’” He turns to you and says, “Oh, I really don’t think God means it. God is love. Besides, I’m quite happy as I am, thanks.”

Don’t turn to him in sincere zeal without knowledge and say, “Please, put on the Lord Jesus Christ. He’ll give you love, joy, peace, fulfillment, and lasting happiness. You’ve got a God-shaped vacuum in your heart only God can fill. If you have a marriage problem, drug problem, alcohol problem, just give your heart to Jesus.” No. You’ll give him the wrong motive for his commitment.

Instead say, “Oh, God, give me courage!” and tell him about the jump. Just say, “Hey, it’s appointed to man once to die. If you die in your sins, God will be forced to give you justice, and His judgment is going to be so thorough. Every idle word a man speaks he’ll give account thereof on the day of judgment; if you’ve lusted, you’ve committed adultery. If you’ve hated someone, you’ve committed murder. And Jesus warned that justice will be so thorough, the fist of eternal wrath will come upon you and [SMACK] grind you to powder. God bless.”

Now saints, I’m not talking about hell-fire preaching. Hell-fire preaching will produce fear-filled converts. Using God’s law will produce tear-filled converts. This one [fear-filled] comes because why? He wants to escape the fires of hell. But in his heart, he thinks God is harsh and unjust, because the law hasn’t been used to show him the exceeding sinful nature of sin. He doesn’t see hell as being his just desert, that he deserves hell. Therefore, he doesn’t understand mercy or grace; and, therefore, he lacks gratitude to God for His mercy. And gratitude is the prime motivation for evangelism. There’ll be no zeal in the heart of a false convert to evangelize.

But this one [tear-filled] comes knowing he has sinned against heaven. That God’s eye is in every place beholding the evil and the good and God has seen darkness, as though it were pure light. He’s seen his thought life. If God in His holiness on the day of wrath made manifest all the secret sins of his heart, all the deeds done in darkness, if he made manifest all the evidence of his guilt, God could pick him up as an unclean thing and cast him into hell and do that which is just. But instead of giving him justice, he’s given him mercy. He’s commended his love toward him in that while he’s yet a sinner Christ died for him. He falls on his knees before that blood-stained cross, and he says, “Oh, God, if You do that for me, I’ll do anything for You. I delight to do Your will, oh, my God. Your law is written upon my heart.”

And like the man who knew he had to pass through the door and face the consequences of breaking the law of gravity and would never take his parachute off because his very life depended on it, so he who comes to the Savior, knowing he has to face a holy God on the day of wrath, would never forsake the righteousness of God in Christ because His very life depends on it.



Hell's Best Kept Secret
by Ray Comfort
www.LivingWaters.com
This message was first preached in August 1982.
Hell’s Best Kept Secret is non-copyrighted, duplication is encouraged.
(You can also email me, Teci, for the complete transcript.)
Preaching and other videos can also be found on Google

Eyewitness accounts of HELL and Present-day Prophecies

#1. "To Hell and Back" by Maurice Rawlings, MD
http://spiritlessons.com/documents/rawlings/dr_rawlings_near_death_experiences.htm
video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSgH2AHkfkw


#2. Open Visions from Hell
from "A Divine Revelation of Hell" by Mary K Baxter
http://www.divinerevelations.info/Mary_K_Baxter_A_Divine_Revelation_of_Hell.htm
audio: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBm9JRggXOY

The Lord said, "This vision is for the future, and it will come to pass. But I shall return to redeem My bride, My church, and they shall not see it. Awaken, o My people I Sound the alarm to the comers of the earth, for I shall return as My Word has spoken."
I beheld the fiery serpent that was in the right arm of hell.

Jesus said, "Come, see what the Spirit is saying to the world."

I saw the horns of the fiery serpent as they entered the bodies of people on earth. Many were completely possessed by the serpent. As I watched, I saw a huge beast arise in a large place and turn into a man. The inhabitants of the earth ran from him, some into the
wilderness, some into caves, and some into subway stations and bomb shelters. They sought any shelter to hide from the eyes of the beast. No one was praising God or talking about Jesus.

A voice said to me, "Where are My people?"

I looked closer and saw people like dead men walking. There was a desperate sadness in the air, and no one turned to the right or left. I saw that the people were being led about by some unseen force. Now and then a voice spoke to them out of the air, and they obeyed
the voice. They did not talk to one another. I saw too that the number "666" was written on each one's forehead and on his hands. I saw soldiers on horses herding the people about as though they were cattle.

The American flag, tattered and torn, lay forlornly on the ground. There was no joy, no laughter, no happiness. I saw death and evil everywhere.

The people walked one behind another into a large department store. They kept in step like discouraged soldiers and were dressed identically in a type of prison garb. A fence surrounded the store, and guards were stationed here and there. Everywhere I looked, I
saw soldiers in battle-dress uniforms.

I saw these zombie-like people herded into the store, where they were able to buy only the barest necessities. As each completed his purchases, he was placed aboard a large green army truck. The truck, well-guarded, was then driven to another area.

Here, in a type of clinic, these people were examined for communicable diseases or crippling handicaps. A small number of them were shuffled to the side as rejects. Soon, those who failed the examination were taken to another room. In that room, an impressive array of switches, buttons and gages lined an entire wall. A door opened, and several technicians came in. One of them began to call the names of the people in the room. Without a struggle, they arose when their names were called and marched into a large box. When they were inside, another technician closed the door and pulled a switch in a panel on the wall.

A few minutes later he opened the door, took down a broom and dust pan, and swept what remained of them off the floor. Nothing but a bit of dust was left of what had once been a roomful of people!

I saw those people who passed the medical exam being put back into the same truck and driven, to a train. No one spoke or even turned to look at anyone else. At another building each person was assigned a job. They all went to work without a single dispute. I watched as they worked very hard at their assigned tasks, and then at the end of the day, they were taken to an apartment building with a high fence around it. Each undressed and went to bed. Tomorrow they would work hard again.

I heard a loud voice fill the night air. " I saw a huge beast, and he sat on a large, I throne. All the people obeyed the beast. I saw spiritual horns growing from his head. They reached, into and out of every place on earth. The beast took upon himself many positions of authority and many j offices, and he became great in power.

The beast pushed himself into many places and deceived many people. The rich and the famous were deceived as well as the poor and disfranchised. Small and great paid homage to the beast.

A large machine was brought into an office. The beast put his mark on it, and his voice came out of it. There was also a "big brother" machine that could see into homes and businesses. Only a single machine of this type existed, and it belonged to the beast. The
part of the machine that was located in the homes of the people was invisible to the naked eye, but it could and did report to the beast every move the people made. I watched as the beast turned his throne around and faced toward me. On his forehead was the number 666.

As I watched, I saw another man in another office become very angry at the beast. He demanded to talk with him. He was yelling at the top of his voice. The beast appeared and seemed very courteous as he said, "Come, I can help you take care of all your problems." The beast took the angry man into a large room and motioned for him to lie down on a table. The room and the table reminded me of a hospital emergency room. The man was given an anesthesia and wheeled beneath a vast machine. The beast attached wires to the
man's head and turned on the machine. On the top of the machine were the words, "This mind eraser belongs to the beast, 666."

When the man was removed from the table, his eyes had a vacant stare, and his movements reminded one of a zombie in a movie. I saw a large blank spot on the top of his head, and I knew his mind had been surgically altered so he could be controlled by the
beast.

The beast said, "Now, sir, don't you feel better? Didn't I say I could take care of all your problems? I have given you a new mind. You will have no worries or troubles now." The man did not speak. "You will obey my every command," said the beast as he picked up a small object and attached it to the man's shirt. He spoke again to the man, and he answered without moving his lips. He moved like a living dead man. "You will work and not get angry or frustrated, nor will you cry or be sad. You will work for me until you die. I have many like you that I control. Some lie, some kill, some steal, some make war, some have children, some run machinery, and some do other things. Yes, I control everything." An evil laugh came from him. The man was handed papers to sign. He gladly gave all his belongings to the beast.

In my vision I saw the man leave the office of the beast, get in a car and drive home. When he approached his wife, she tried to kiss him, but he made no attempt to respond. He had no feeling for his wife or anyone else. The beast had made him incapable of feeling any emotion. The wife became very angry and screamed at her husband, but to no avail. At last she said, "OK, I'll call the beast. He will know what to do." After a quick phone call, she left the house and drove to the same building her husband had just left.

The beast welcomed her in and said, "Tell me all your troubles. I am sure I can help you." A very handsome man took her by the arm and led her to the same table her husband had been on earlier. After the same operation, she also became a depersonalized slave of the beast.

I heard the beast ask her, "How do you feel?" She did not answer until after he had attached a small object to her blouse. Then she acknowledged that he was master and lord and began to worship him.

"You will be a breeder," he said. "You will have perfect babies, and they will worship and serve me."

The woman replied in a robotic voice, "Yes, master, I will obey."

I saw the woman again. This time she was in another building. There were many pregnant women there. The women lay lifelessly on their beds and in chanted monotones praised the beast. All had 666 on their foreheads.

When their babies were born, they were taken to another building where mind-altered nurses had the task of raising them. The nurses also had 666 on their foreheads. The beast grew in power until his empire stretched across the earth. The babies also grew, and at a certain time, they also went beneath the mind-destroying machine. They worshiped the beast and his image. But the machine had no power over the children of God.

I heard the voice of the Lord say, "Those that worship the beast and his image shall perish. Many shall be deceived and will fall, but I will save my children from the beast. These things will take place in the end times. Do not take the mark of the beast. Repent now before it is too late.

"The beast will call himself a man of peace. And he will bring peace to many nations out of a very chaotic time. He will be able to supply the world with many inexpensive goods, and he will assure that everyone's pay is sufficient. He will make an alliance with many nations, and the great men of the world will follow him into a false sense of security.

"Before these times I will raise up an army of believers that will stand for truth and righteousness. The mighty army that Joel spoke about will hear My voice from the rising to the going down of the sun.

"In the night hours also they will hear My voice, and they will answer Me. They will work for Me, and they will run like mighty men of war. They shall do great works for Me, for I will be with them."

All these things were revealed to me by the Lord Jesus Christ in an open vision. They are the words of His mouth, and they concern the times of the end.

Jesus and I returned home, and I wondered about all the things He had shown me and told me. I fell asleep praying for the salvation of all mankind.



#3. A Prophetic Warning from Pastor Steve Foss
Steve Foss Ministries P.O. Box1592 Keller, TX76244

I am writing to you today an urgent message concerning the coming American election. God has released me to share with you a powerful prophecy He gave me eight years ago. I have shared this prophecy in a number of public meetings, but I have never published it for all our friends and partners. In January of 2000 God gave me an incredible insight into what was about to happen in the coming elections in America over the next decade. I am not using this e-mail to tell you, who are citizens of America, who to vote for. However, you need to hear what the Holy Spirit is saying. Never in my 22 years of ministry have I seen such a spirit of delusion released upon our country. In January of 2000, while the Republican nomination for president was far from being decided, God spoke to me that George W. Bush would be the president of the United States. He told me it would be the hardest fought election in American history. I'm sure we can all remember the incredible battle that took place in Florida. He told me that President Bush would be elected to two terms. He told me that during Bush's term there would be a season of unprecedented economic prosperity. Now despite what the media has said, the economic wealth created during the last eight years was unprecedented. I know the media and one of the political parties has been trying to paint the last eight years as the worst economic time in American history, but it is absolutely untrue. If you look at the wealth created, there were more millionaires created in the last eight years than any time in history.. Multitudes of people were able to sell real estate before the housing market collapse, and received incredible transfers of wealth. I could spend hours showing documentation of the wealth created, but suffice it to say, the evidence is there. God then said to me, "At the end of President Bush's second term there would be an economic collapse." As everyone in the world knows, we have just faced the greatest economic threat since 1929 and the Great Depression. I will speak a little more about the present economic situation a little later in this message. Every detail that God gave me has come to pass exactly as He said. Now there is one more important thing that God spoke to me. This is the purpose and the reason I am writing this e-mail today. God spoke to me that after George W. Bush, Americawould elect its most ungodly president ever. I'm going to say that again. God spoke to me that after George W. Bush, America would elect its most ungodly president ever. As of the writing of this e-mail we are now less than two weeks away from voting for our next president. At this time the polls are strongly showing that the Democratic nominee for president will easily win the White House. Now in 2006 I began to ask the Lord, "Is that guaranteed to happen in 2008?" He spoke to me very clearly and gave me the key words to what I believe holds this election in the balance right now. He gave me these key words that can forever change what is about to happen in America. He said, "It depends on the Christians." I am not going to endorse a candidate, nor am I telling anyone who to vote for. I am simply sharing what God has shown me. I had a vision earlier this year. I saw Barack Obama in this vision. He was speaking to a large crowd and being broadcast on television. He was speaking incredible words of unity, peace, and bringing all sides together; the words were elegant, the words were comforting, and the words were inspiring. But while he was speaking I saw all a powerful spirit of violence coming out of his spirit feeding into the spirits of those that were hearing him. That spirit of violence was directed at anybody who opposed what he was saying. Those who heard his words and received it had the spirit of violence being implanted inside of them. It was a rage like I have not seen before. It was the rage that would be unleashed against those who oppose and stand in the way of Barack Obama's agenda. We are already seeing the beginnings of this spirit manifested here in America. The vicious attacks against Sarah Palin have been unlike anything we have ever seen before. The sheer hate for this woman from people who knew nothing about her, and who claim to stand up and protect the little people, and women, has been shocking. We now see it with Joe the plumber. These people who are under the influence of this demon spirit of rage desire to completely destroy this man because he dared to question Barack Obama. In fact it wasn't just the question; it was because Barack Obama revealed his true agenda that Joe the plumber became a threat. So the supporters of Barack Obama who had been fed and affected by the spirit of violence went into full swing to destroy a fellow citizen; the very kind of person that Barack Obama has been speaking about in his eloquent speeches, saying how he is the only candidate fighting for them. I want to put this deep in your spirit. I am speaking as a prophet. The words I'm about to tell you are "thus saith the Lord". If Barack Obama is elected, the attacks against free speech, against those who believe differently than he does, and the systematic use of the government and laws to silence the voice of fundamental Christians will be unlike anything ever seen in this nation before. I have talked to many Christians, including pastors, not only here in the United States but around the world, who strongly support Barack Obama. Many of them are angry with the Republicans, and understandably so. Others are inspired by the thought of electing America's first African American president, while others believe Barack Obama to be a Christian who is very concerned with the poor and needy. I am not going to address any of the many concerns about Barack Obama and his form of Christianity. I am only speaking the words of thus saith the Lord, and you have to decide what you're going to do with it. But I want to remind you, every word God has spoken to me over the last eight years and every word which I have prophesied about the American government and the elections has come to pass. God does not give this prophecy to scare us, but to prepare us. God said that the 2008 election is in the hands of the Christians. Just like when God spoke to Jonah about the judgment coming to Nineveh, when the Ninevites repented God withheld judgment; the same can happen in this election. Even though God spoke that America would elect its most ungodly president, He has given us the ability to stay this judgment. Now you may be asking, "Are you saying that Barack Obama, if elected, would be America's most ungodly president ever." Yes! Now I'm not telling you who to vote for. Some people want an ungodly president. That's their choice. I have watched throughout the world, Christians support political leaders who are blatantly ungodly. So again, this is the people's choice. I believe if the Christians will pray, repent, and hear the voice of God, a miracle can happen on Election Day. This nation lies in the hands of the Christians. Will we humble ourselves before God and pray for His kingdom to come and His will to be done? Or will we allow our emotions, our feelings, our angers, our greed, our race, the opinions of the media, our fears, to dictate to us and affect who we vote for? If you allow these things to affect you, whether you vote for Republican or Democrat, you are not being led by the Spirit. We must spend time in deep intercessory prayer and cry out for God's mercy upon America. For all our friends who are not in the United States, if Christianity comes under the assaults that it would under a government controlled by Barack Obama and the Liberal Democrats, it will have horrible negative effects on the Gospel throughout the world. All truth is parallel. People say when America catches a cold, the world suffers a flu. This present financial crisis is proof of that. When America is moral and bows its knee to God, it has incredible positive spiritual impact around the world. However, we have seen over the last several decades, when America becomes more immoral that too affects the world. We need all the Christians around the world to pray for revival to come to America, and for God to have mercy and spare us from this judgment. Finally, a brief word about the financial crisis. This is not the end time financial crisis. It is very serious, and it is shaking the foundations of the world's economic system. But we will come out of this, and there will be a time again of incredible wealth creation. However, the cracks in the financial system will not be healed. The door has been opened and the way is being made for a one world government system to overtake the world's economics. The world will falsely look at this situation and say that when the governments individually, and with some unified coordination, jumped in to rescue the world, that it prevented a worldwide depression. In the future, when the true end time financial collapse takes place, it will be very easy for the nations of the world and the peoples of those nations to allow a new worldwide governing body to come to the rescue. Understand that everything that is happening has a significant spiritual purpose. So don't panic by what you see happening today, but take this as a spiritual warning from God. Prepare yourself. Get out of debt. Hear the voice of the Holy Spirit in regards to how you handle money. Let God position you to handle the future complete economic collapse and the overtaking of the world's economic system. Please pray for America. May God have mercy on us all.

Your friend,
Steve Foss

More Americans believe in devil than in Darwin

From ThinkChristian.net:

MORE AMERICANS BELIEVE IN DEVIL THAN DARWIN

Yep, according to a new Harris poll, 62 percent of U.S. residents believe in a literal hell and the devil compared to only 42 percent who believe in Darwin's theory of evolution. (I've always argued that it requires much more faith to believe incredibly complex life simply evolved than to believe in a Creator.)
The poll of 2,455 U.S. adults, also reported that 82 percent believe in God, 79 percent believe in miracles, 75 percent in heaven, and 72 percent believe that Jesus Christ is God or the Son of God.
It's an interesting poll, but begs the apostle James' warning, "You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder." What we do with our beliefs is as important as what we believe.

hell for a booboo?

very long post...you might get something from here :) this is found in the forum section of A Christian and an Atheist. Enjoy! :)


Hi Poemind, Spongebob and everybody :) Thanks for the welcome :)

First off, i think i have to introduce myself: i'm a student getting my doctorate in physics and i'm also an aspiring writer (as you might have noticed!). i was literally born into a Catholic culture but unfortunately i have encountered more of the traditions and activities that i can do to be saved, instead of hearing those parts in the Bible that say only Jesus (the Jesus already ingrained in our consciousness!) can save me. Hence i began to have doubts about God at the same time that i started looking into the sciences in high school. i embraced the term "agnostic" which seemed so appropriate; even now, because i believe now that i have "seen".

To Poemind, i'm sincerely sorry for any feeling of outrage, offense or anything that i might have caused :( i truly did not mean to.

i'm not claiming i know my future, much less anyone else's. Especially since i *do* know how you feel; i HATE the whole "well *i'm* going to heaven and you're not" air too. (It's bad enough in kindergarten when some kids didn't want to play with me, what more when applied to discussions of the eternal soul? That's always awful.)

Although even my parents sometimes feel that way, please believe that i don't do the holier-than-thou route: i've always lived my life going my own way and i only turned to God when i had no other choice. (How's that for virtuous? :) ) But here's the thing: the Bible, and what He tells me personally (which for the sake of argument, can also just be delusions on my part) *always* turn out to be right. That's why i mentioned the Emerson quote: i learned the hard way that i don't know everything, and there's Someone who until now turns out to have the answers...answers that are not only "right" but "good" too.

Maybe some of you reading this might know of when many of Jesus' disciples left because they can't take his hard teachings (yup, "right" and "good" but really hard to follow! i think the atheists and Christians would agree at least on that! :) ). Jesus asked the twelve if they wanted to leave too; Peter replied, "Lord, where else can we go? You have the words of eternal life." One of my favorite psalms also say: "Taste and see that the Lord is good." Embarrassing as it might be to admit to turning to God only when i really had to, since then i've tasted and i've seen for myself. Now i can say that there is nowhere else i can go. (And as a former agnostic, i've believed because i *have* seen. :) )

Your father's statement and/or implications *do* seem unfair though; that each man will be judged by the light they have received if they had no say in how much light they received in the first place...i can't easily ask your father to clarify on that but...

Right now all i can think of is Jesus' parable about the talents (the Matthew effect in economics): "For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him." But note that even if the servants were given unequal amounts, they had complete freedom in how to use them, and in the end they were judged according to how the talents entrusted to them grew. To balance this out, the Bible constantly warns too that "to the one whom much is given, much is expected." Surely, whether we say we believe in creation or evolution, we cannot choose "what we have been given in life" (our body, talents, financial status, relatives...) but we do have the power/choice/freedom in the decisions we make, which are usually based on these "initial conditions".

Gandhi and Buddha are often used as examples in this kind of discussion aren't they? :) And i always cringe...and take the seemingly cowardly act of talking about my own life instead. :) Well, the Bible does say that it is never our (humans') place to judge. :) But i also just point to myself to show how *hard* it is to rely on my self instead of on the Biblical God; i personally don't know if Gandhi had it easy. (i have heard though, that Gandhi said that he had no problems with Christ, only with Christians; and like many of us he questioned the "hypocrisy, malpractices and dogma in all religions [Wikipedia]".)

But speaking of whether Gandhi is in hell or not, i have heard some scholars say that the biblical fire and brimstone is just a metaphor for *any place* where God is not present. i'm not too sure about drawing the line between metaphor and reality (because in the same vein others say that Jesus is not God, or not resurrected and so on), but i can definitely relate with the absence of God even before any physical death. Like i said before, there was a time when i stuck by a particular decision against all urgings of conscience until my conscience did not bother me anymore. i did not listen to God so He did not speak anymore (as the secular 'conscience')...But i'm a weird person; i only realize the absence of something when it finally returns :) such that it was only later on, when i became a full-fledged Christian learning how to communicate with God, did it sink in: i was previously spiritually very dead and i did not know it. i was already in hell, even without fire and brimstone.

(Elaboration 1) When i turned away from God, it started as just really wanting to do something that i knew was wrong, which led me to question the authority of God, and eventually His existence. But God didn't really leave, He just did not make His presence felt. That's because there were rare times when i suddenly get to think, "This is all i ever wanted, how come i've never felt so miserable?". And during my lowest point when i felt my world crumbling, i had a deep sense that "everything is going to be ok". i can confidently say that it was God who gave me flashes of insight and comfort even when i turned away from Him; even though the ideas were in my head, i definitely could not have thought them because (a) otherwise i wouldn't have gotten to the point where i was so depressed, and (b) i certainly did not have any answer to the question i heard, nor did i have an explanation to the statement i heard.

(Elaboration 2) A warning to all of us: i turned away from God a few years after i first prayed the "salvation prayer" to accept Jesus as Savior and Lord, and a few months after i prayed that i would get to know and love God before meeting my husband. (You could guess my age right now, huh!) At that time one decision logically made sense and flowed into another; but now i look back and say "What was i thinking?" (i hope nobody takes offense here, i think we could all relate in some other context outside faith...) Anyway i'd like to mention this: "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

To sum up, i don't know the future, but i trust God who revealed Himself through the Bible and that still small voice. i *am* an agnostic who encountered evidence for belief in my own life, in the short time that i have been a Christian (dear skeptics, you might be glad to know that when i started attending services i mentally had one foot still on "dry land", or one eye still opened, or some such thing). Hence, when the Bible makes statements about the afterlife and eternal destiny, i choose to believe because (i) i myself have no idea, and (ii) no other person/philosophy has proven itself credible. i am concerned for everyone else who has not accepted Christ, not because i'm-right-and-you're-wrong, but because i have already experienced the absence of God for a short period of time and i now realize it to be hell, a fate i do not wish upon anyone. But since i myself realized the depth of "hell" only when i encountered "heaven" wherever God is present...it's like asking people to eat this brand of ice cream instead, and they'll know why after they try it for themselves.

Taste and see that the LORD is good...just...great...true. For those here who have never been Christians, why not try reading or asking around, just on the off chance that you might learn something :) For those who are formerly Christian, i was once like you :) i hope the non-Christians here would keep an open mind, that --- like Poemind said --- you be agnostic of being agnostic :), and if you're atheist, that there is even a small possibility that there is a God (perhaps not the God of organized religion? Or maybe there's a little truth to what they're saying?). In any case, i cannot make the decision for you; i just really really hope that you "taste" for yourself because it's really for your own benefit anyway. :)

Great day and God bless! :)